Not your daddy's air gun

Discussion in 'Hunting & Firearms' started by Fomen, Jun 6, 2017.

  1. weldon

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    NO. Try a Timney mdl 401 adjustable from 1-3 lbs letoff. Retails for $135. Timney is a well known and respected after market trigger manufacturer.
     
  2. Larry M

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    Since we're talking about rifles here.

    df6e04cc19511134f5adce252dade137.jpg
     
  3. Fomen

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    Most (if not all) PCP have very smooth trigger pulls and upgraded trigger systems. These aren't the off the shelf air guns you buy at Wal Mart. The cheapest PCP is more expensive than the most expensive break barrel rifle. There's a reason for this. PCP's are for serious air gunners. You can't just buy the rifle and off you go. You have to purchase some sort of mechanism to recharge the HP air cylinder. Then you have to purchase a nice scope for it, a rail, and scope mounts. But once you get through the initial cost up front, your purchases going forward are minimal. Just pellets. And once you start shooting a PCP air rifle, you'll find it difficult to even consider going back to a break barrel air rifle.

    Here is a picture of the trigger system used on my gun.

    01-15-13-03-new-AirForce-trigger-and-safety.jpg
     
  4. weldon

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    My mistake. I transposed a PCP airgun system with the standard break barrel or lever side c**k air/ nitro piston system in my post. Two different systems with the break barrel action having mostly poor trigger actions that can benefit from an after market trigger.
     
  5. Ram-Rod

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    $149 Benjamin Wildfire PCP Air Rifle

    $849 Beeman RX-2 nitro piston Air Rifle

    Just sayin
     
  6. Fomen

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    I stand corrected :).

    I would NEVER pay that much for a nitro piston break barrel air rifle. That's the most expensive one I've ever seen. I'm trying to figure out why the other "Gas Ram" piston air rifles by Beeman (the same company) are 1/4 of the price as the RX-2. It just doesn't make sense.

    As far as the wildfire is concerned, It's a low end they only make in .177. Benjamin is basically Crossman. They are the same company. I didn't know they made PCP's that cheap. But like I said, the convenience of the air cylinder vs cocking the barrel is a no-brainer. Apparently you can get 60 shots per fill. Try cocking that break barrel 60 times and see if it doesn't start to get laborious and monotonous.
     
    #26 Fomen, Jun 29, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
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  7. hikeandfish

    hikeandfish Well-Known Member

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    I primarily bow hunt, but have a Benjamin Marauder .22 PCP air rifle that I use for hunting cottontails and jackrabbits. For me, the great thing about air rifles is that it exercises rifle marksmanship and stalking skills i.e it's like bow hunting with a rifle. The mental and physical aspects of stalking a wild and wary bunny to within 30 yards is great practice for bigger game like deer and pig.
     
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  8. Fomen

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    Since I first posted this thread, I've done some significant upgrades to my air rifle.....

    1. 1 piece (custom) Mad Dog rifle stock
    2. PCP Tunes constant air pressure regulator
    3. PCP Tunes high flow top hat
    4. Talon Tunes 250 BAR carbon fiber bottle
    5. Talon Tunes 95 gram brass hammer
    6. Talon Tunes fluted delrin breech
    7. Harris Bipod
    8. DonnyFL Ronin air suppressor

    Here's what the rifle looks like now. The only thing that's different is the suppressor. The one picture was from Talon Tunes. It wasn't quiet enough for my liking. So I swapped it out with the DonnyFL model. Gun is whisper quiet now, even though I'm firing a 33.94gr pellet 930 FPS at the muzzle with 65 FPE. I get less that 3/8" groups at 50 yards, and 1" groups at 100 yards. This gun is a tack driver. My next venture is to get a bullet mold and start shooting slugs designed for air rifles out of it.

    AF Rifle.jpg
     
  9. Fomen

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    That law is for the best. Most serious air gun owners are responsible, and they would never shoot at anything if it didn't have a proper backstop. But some people will shoot at anything, even if there are cars, homes, or people in the background. I would NEVER, EVER do that!
     
  10. nainoa881

    nainoa881 Active Member

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    Rifle looks GREAT! I’m considering a condor SS in .25 right now / glad to hear yours groups as well as it does out to 100yds. I currently have a Hatsan bull boss in .25 and it shoots well out to 65yds out of the box, but I’m still pretty fixed on getting an Air Force rifle. Also have a couple .22’s laying around (marauder and Kral puncher breaker) that my city friends graciously leave at my place so they’ll get more use. They are both exceptional 50-60yd hunting rifles. Actually took all 3 on a prairie dog hunt in WY recently and the .25 bull boss outshined the .22’s. Nothing air powered outdid the traditional .17 hmr to 204 Ruger however...
    Am Kind of intrigued by the .30 condor but if I can keep using same JSB ammo in .25 then I’ll be happy. Thanks for the post! I’m in the east county sticks if you ever want to shoot sometime.
    Best,
    Scott
     
  11. geofish

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    That’s why silencers are cool and I believe not illegal on an air gun.....
     
  12. Fomen

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    So...... Let me educate you on the AF rifles...... I'm going to give you the pros and cons:

    Pros:
    1. VERY POWERFUL! More power available than most rifles in their class, easily dispatching small to medium game
    2. Very versatile. There is no other PCP rifle in existence with more aftermarket options available to upgrade.
    3. Medium level price point.

    Cons:
    1. VERY , VERY hold sensitive!
    2. Very temperamental and potentially frustrating.
    3. Weight becomes an issue when you start adding components.

    The AF platform can be one of the most frustrating PCP's you'll ever own. The design with the bottle at the rear is the Achilles heel of the gun. All of the components are VERY high quality. The gun is manufactured here in the USA, and AF stands by their product. If something goes wrong with it, there is a lifetime warranty. But the bottle at the rear of the gun is designed to be used in conjunction with a clamp (like a hose clamp) with a flat piece of bar stock attached to it. Then you rest this against your shoulder to shoot. The extended length in conjunction with how it's designed to be used created a minute amount of flex at the valve assembly. This equated into inaccuracies down range. A 1/4 millimeter flex at the breech might equate to 1" at 100 yards. That's the reason I got the aftermarket (1 piece) stock. It eliminates the bottle flex because I'm resting the butt of the stock on my shoulder instead of the bottle. But I even had to do a few modifications to my stock to get the bottle to hold tight. I noticed when I sighted the gun in on the bench, I would get hole in hole shots at 50 yards. Then I would get the gun in a real world environment where I would rest my cheek on the bottle, and the gun would shoot 1/2" down and to the left at 50 yards. I realized that the weight of my cheek resting on the bottle was causing flex. So I came up with a fix that locked the bottle in place. Since the fix, my gun is LASER accurate! I could probably out shoot most .22 rim fires from the bench with my pellet rifle.

    So after all of the investments I've made, if I had it to do over, I would have purchased a FX Impact, or FX Crown. Those rifles utilize a bullpup design, where the bottle is mounted in the front of the gun. They also have VERY sophisticated regulators and barrel designs. The utilize a patented "smooth twist" barrel design where the barrel itself twist eliminating the need for lands and grooves that normal rifle barrels have. The are tack drivers! You can watch videos where guys shoot match heads at 100 yards, and they drop dove and pigeons at 100 to 150 yards. The synthetic version of this gun runs about $1500. The laminate versions with adjustable cheek rests run about $2000. But they are the BEST! Hands down! The reason they are the best are because of the gun laws in the EU. You cannot own a firearm without special permission. And you can't even own an air rifle unless it generates 12 foot pounds of energy or less. Well, 12 foot pounds of energy can't push a .22 or .25 pellet with much velocity. So they utilize .177 caliber. But that's even low energy for a .177 pellet. So what they lack in energy, they MUST make up for in accuracy. So they spend millions of dollars on R&D and they manufacture the guns with very tight tolerances. That's why FX and Daystate manufacture the finest, most accurate air rifles in the world.

    I guess I said all that to say this..... This is how much I've spent on my AF Condor in total:

    1. Gun itself (used with scope) $700. (New is $800 w/out scope).
    2. Custom 1 piece Mad Dog rifle stock ($350)
    3. PCP Tunes CAP regulator ($200)
    4. Harris Bipod ($110)
    5. Heavier hammer, new delrin breech, and high flow top hat for valve ($100)
    6. Dovetail riser mount for scope ($40)
    7. Donny FL Ronin supressor ($200)
    8. Talon Tunes .5L CF bottle ($170)

    There are a few various other things here and there, but I'm not including the pumps and pellets as those are necessary for any pellet rifle. But for the money I've spent on my AF Condor, I could have purchased a FX Crown with a synthetic stock and a scope. The gun only weighs about 7.5 pounds. My gun weighs about 11.5 pounds. It's heavy and difficult to shoulder without utilizing a shooting stick. But it's PINPOINT ACCURATE now! But admittedly, if I knew then what I know now, I would have bit the bullet and purchased the FX instead- and that is what I would recommend for you.

    But IF you buy the AF Condor, let's hook up. I have a TON of knowledge regarding this gun that will be extremely beneficial for you, and help you avoid massive amounts of frustration. As a matter of fact, I would LOVE to hook up anyways. I really enjoy shooting high end air rifles with guys who appreciate them. I'll let you push some rounds through my Condor and see what you think. We'll take it out to 100 yards!

    Whatever you do, DO NOT buy an entry level PCP (Gamo or Umarex). You WILL regret it! They are the Harbor Freight Tools of the air rifle world.
     
    #32 Fomen, Sep 18, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
  13. Fomen

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    Silencers and suppressors are the same thing. As a matter of fact, the most accurate term used to describe the functionality of the device is suppressor. It's not possible for them to be silent (on a firearm or an air rifle). They baffle or suppress the sound down to a reasonable level. My gun generates 65 FPE when I fire it. Unsuppressed, it sounds like a .22 long rifle firing. Suppressed, it sounds MUCH quieter. You can still hear it, but it's not annoyingly loud. On smaller caliber air rifles (like a .177), you can suppress them down to a level that is almost inaudible. If you miss a bird at 40 yards with one of these, you will definitely get a 2nd shot. It won't spook it at all.
     
  14. nainoa881

    nainoa881 Active Member

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    Sorry for the extremely late reply and thank you for the info of AF platforms - very informative! I haven’t been on the site lately and therefore missed your reply. Greatly appreciate the time you took to lay it all out - very very useful info.
     
  15. Kesepton

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    Ive a few air rifles when I first started shooting because of the things like CHEAP ammo and being able to shoot in the backyard without much hassle. Ive since sold them and moved to real guns cause I don't have a yard anymore and the air rifles were more expensive than handguns and rifles I wanted! They are great fun and I would love to get back into them though. Some of them look really awesome too. I always wanted a Samyang big bore rifle (not my images)

    CIMG0490.jpg
    Recluse1_zps72b7f503.jpg

    I refilled my guns using a large bulk scuba tank. Getting that thing filled at sports authority was always interesting.... Trying to explain to the clerk that I was using it for a rifle and not scub so I did not have certifications for diving....
     
  16. Fomen

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    I just stepped up my game yesterday. Got tired of shooting pellets and the inconsistency issues from their poor ballistic coefficient. Pellets are GREAT for short range shooting. Short range for e really high end pellet rifle are MOA groups at 100 yards. Many small caliber rifles can't do that. But the world of air gunning is constantly evolving. You know..... You own PCP's. You understand they are VERY expensive, but they have their limitations.

    Let me ask you this? Have you ever been disappointed with “flyers” when shooting pellets? Then frustrating yourself trying to tune your gun to maximize performance by changing pellet shape, regulated pressure, or pellet weight, only to find the issue still persists? Or how about taking a long shot when hunting, only to have your pellet lose the majority of its energy when it impacts its designated target? I too have dealt with these frustrating issues. The aerodynamics of a pellet are like that of a shuttlecock in the game of badminton. Although the shuttlecock is self-stabilizing, there is a massive amount of drag across the projectile in flight as its shape/design lends it to a poor ballistic coefficient. JSB Diablo Heavy pellets (33.94gr in .25 caliber) have one of the best ballistic coefficients of any pellet. The BC comes in at a whopping .050 (not so good)

    Why throw a shuttlecock down range when you can throw a football in a line drive spiral like John Elway? And just like in the game of football, the harder the ball is thrown, the tighter the spiral, and the more energy is carried throughout the pass. So I bought air rifle slug molds in 2 calibers (.22 and .25). These are a BRAND NEW (revolutionary) design.

    Now I know what you’re thinking. Why wouldn’t I just buy some NSA swaged slugs for my air rifle? Well, I’ll tell you why. There’s an old rule of thumb for pellets and bullets. Pellets LOVE a choke. Bullets HATE a choke. On your air rifle, the manufacturer has the last 1.5-2” of the barrel choked down by .002 inches. It seems insignificant, but it has massive negative effects on slugs via added friction. The choke is designed to regulate the shape of the pellet as it leaves the muzzle. It helps compensate for any manufacturer shape imperfections. It also helps regulate the shape after the air from the valve balloons the skirt of the pellet at the breech. But slugs don’t need to be reshaped. If your barrel is un-choked, I can guarantee you either personally or professionally removed it to shoot slugs, or you purchased the gun with the intention of using slugs from the get-go. Don’t even try to shoot those slugs out of a choked barrel though. The surface area of the NSA slug already creates 10 x’s the friction that a pellet creates. But the choke at the end of the barrel absolutely robs you of velocity and stability. Even with an un-choked barrel, you’re dealing with friction issues. That’s why big bore air rifles need hundreds of FPE to overcome friction issues. It’s not just to send a heavy piece of lead down range.

    What sets these slugs apart is this: Instead of one large surface area running down the length of the slug that contacts and seals up against the lands and grooves in the barrel, this slug was designed with “drive bands”. It mimics the surface area of a pellet inside of the gun barrel. It also allows the pellets to be used in choked barrels! No need to modify your gun. You can use these with your existing platform. I own an AF Condor in .25 with a regulator on it. I’m using the stock 24” LW barrel. These things are powerful BEASTS as they leave the barrel. The faster you push them, the more stable they become. They are also self-centering as you push them into the breach portion barrel (unlike pellets that sometimes go in cockeyed). They are cast from 100% soft lead. They also have a "boat tail" design which is a proven aerodynamic design in bullets regarding their stability. I did give up weight for stability. The old pellets I was shooting were swaged, and weighed in at 34 gr. These weigh in at 48 gr. Significantly heavier. However, even though they are heavier, their ballistic coefficient and aerodynamic shape lend them to being more stable in flight, and thus they shoot MUCH flatter than a pellet shoots.

    Here are the molds and the pics of the cast bullets. I also welded together a small base to affix to the lead melting pot to insure short, equal distances into each sprue from the pour spout. :

    Mold pics 15.jpg Mold pics 14.jpg
    Mold pics 13.jpg
    Mold pics 1.jpg
    Mold pics 12.jpg
     
    #36 Fomen, Nov 12, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
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  17. Medicated fisherman

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    I live in unincorporated La Mesa and it is legal here. You have to look at the sheriffs map one is no shooting of anything the other is no firearms. I had this argument on here before.
     
  18. Medicated fisherman

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  19. Medicated fisherman

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    Wasn't refering to you but a supposed expert.
     
  20. William Ritchie

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    Do the slugs go thru a sizer before loading ? Do you lube them ? I have been casting slugs for rifle and handgun for many years , generally the bore is slugged and measured and the bullets are sized and lubed to fit taking into account any obturation that may take place upon firing . With the small multiple grooves on the PCP projectiles that you cast they are very similar to the old Loverin design . Just curious love the casting part of the game . BTW considering they are pure lead they came out of your mold nice .
     
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